Advice?

[Black Dog]

After having a full beard for 30+ years, I have begun shaving for really the first time in my life (see newbies forum, Wales thread). I started with a supermarket cheapie cartridge razor (Tesco Matrix, for UK shavers) but then cottoned on to this group and decided to go the traditional route. I've got a vintage Ever Ready SE razor, which I have used a few times, and a cheap straight razor as well. I've used them both for a few days and, frankly, at the moment the Tesco razor is winning hands-down! Now I understand the principles, and I know this shouldn't be so, so what am I doing wrong?

The straight is a cheap one and I'm not expecting great things from it, but I've stropped it, and to my untutored eye it is wickedly sharp and passes the thumbnail test easily. The Ever Ready has a brand new Gem Blue Star blade installed. And yet both of these give me a poor shave (lots of rough stubble, even after several passes WTG, ATG and XTG) and a fair bit of soreness.

So is it likely to be lack of sharpness, lack of technique, or just lack of patience? I have to say that it feels like lack of sharpness (I've got plenty of experience working with edge tools in cabinetmaking, and to me a chisel isn't ready until I can shave the inside of my forearm with it). But then why the trouble with the ER with the brand-new blade?

The cheapie is very easy to use (although good shaving cream and a proper lather has made a huge difference) and does a good job, although it pains me to say it.

Sorry for the unfocused and rather dull* questions, but I'm a bit new to all this, and spectacularly lacking in clue, as you can see.

*That's "dull" in the Welsh sense of "stupid", and yes, I am aware of the pun!

[IsaacRN]

I know that if your going a Thumb Nail Test and shaving afterwards that can really mess up the edge. Lots of stretching...stretch stretch...and stretch again.

Is the blade honed by you? Improper stropping can also ruin an edge.

[DragonBoy]

Get a DE razor..

I have tried SE razors from time to time and I havent had any luck with them.. My tip is to buy a Merkur 34C HD and eg some Derby blades..

The DE is much easier to shave with than both a SE and a Straight..

And dont give up.. It takes a while to get it right..

Hope this helps..

[Scorpio]

the Tesco razor is winning hands-down! Now I understand the principles, and I know this shouldn't be so, so what am I doing wrong?

The straight is a cheap one So is it likely to be lack of sharpness, lack of technique, or just lack of patience?
The cheapie is very easy to use (although good shaving cream and a proper lather has made a huge difference) and does a good job, although it pains me to say it.

I think it is combination of all three. That straight razor is not shave ready, your technique needs improving and your stroping probably dull the edge. Honing chisels and honing straight razors is not even close to the same thing.

I suggest you pick one of the two, either a DE or a straight, learn to shave with it. Then once you gain experience in your technique move on to the other. The learning curve with a straight is steep so the right tool properly honed and patience is essential.

How cheap is your straight? If it is real cheap you may want to get something of better quality. I am not saying go spend 100 pounds but it is hard to say without looking at your blade. If you are getting irritation you are using too much pressure. This game is about reduction. If you expect to get a BBS shave in one pass I can assure you there will be plenty of irritation. Stubble has to be reduced before going ATG or XTG. Learning the direction in which your stubble growth is very important.

Raf

[qhsdoitall]

All good advice. From my experience, DE works better then an SE for me. A straight is very hard to get prep right. Get thee to eBay and pick yourself a nice used Gillette DE or Merkur HD Classic. Get a sampler pack of DE blades while you are at it.

[Scorpio]

From my experience, DE works better then an SE for me. A straight is very hard to get prep right.

Heretic!!!!!!:D

Raf

[qhsdoitall]

Heretic!!!!!!:D

Raf

:p

I don't count the ACD-N. :D

My preference:

1) DE
2) Feather ACD-N
3) Bill Ellis str8
4) Sensor
5) SE

[Black Dog]

Thanks, guys - lots to think about here.

Scorpio - I don't for one moment think that chisels are the same as razors! I only mentioned that to make clear that I know a sharp edge when I see one, and I know the work and techniques involved to get one. But I hadn't planned on using my Tormek waterstone to hone the razor!

The straight is a an eBay cheapie. I cost me under 20GBP for two, plus a strop and paste in the box. As I said, I don't expect great things from it, but I wasn't willing to spend big money on a quality razor, honing stone and strop before I had a bit of experience. This was probably a mistake, as now I realise that without proper honing and stropping I will never get it to work as well as it ought, and therefore I will be none the wiser. I'll keep trying with it, but probably at weekends when I have a bit more time to take it slow and get it right.

I will also keep trying with the Ever Ready, but that's more a nostalgia thing as it's what my Dad used to use. Maybe a good DE might be a solution, with the SE put out to grass as a display object rather than a daily shave.

I'll keep going, and thanks for the input everyone.

[Scorpio]

You can certainly use your blades to practice honing so that when you acquire a better blade you can hone it yourself. I am sure you know what a sharp edge edge feels. I was trying to illustrate, poorly I guess, that it is a different method to achieve the edge. I know of many knife makers as well as woodworkers that have mentioned that it is quite different to hone a straight blade. This is not to say that you can not achieve the goal. I am sure you can.

Don't give up on the straight blade. The shaves are much closer and smoother. It is just a matter of time and patience.

Raf

[Black Dog]

That's reassuring, thanks! My best bet would be to buy a hone and a proper strop, and then hone the straight properly and try it from there. However, that involves a bit of GBP investment when my wife is already wondering what the heck is going on, and asking where her nice bearded husband has disappeared to! Certainly the honing stones I possess are nothing like good enough for a razor.

One thing is good, though. I shaved a couple of times at the weekend with the straight razor (we call them "cut-throats" here in the UK, not sure if you do) and I am still alive, much to the amazement of my wife. Not even a nick, so I must be doing something right!

:cool:

[suffolksupplies]

http://www.axminster.co.uk/category-Japanese-Waterstones-208587.htm



Regards,


Paul

[mastermute]

http://www.axminster.co.uk

Ohh.. Axminster... "The Free Range Town" :rofl CHICKEN OUT!
(Well, I like HFW generally, but this time he took it a bit too far, IMO. It's definitely a good cause, but there are more important issues to tackle if you want to start a crusade)

[Black Dog]

Thanks for the link, Paul. I know Axminster well and used to get a lot of my kit there when I was cabinetmaking. Which on that page would you recommend? The combination stones only go as high as 1000/6000, whereas the wisdom seems to be that 4000/8000 is ideal. To get the 4000/8000 combination would need two separate stones, costing about 65 GBP, whereas I've seen the Norton combination stone advertised for around 55 GBP.

To put it another way - what is the minimum grade of stone I need to get an acceptable result? If the 1000/6000 combo would do the job, I might well get myself one of those. It's significantly cheaper than anything of 8000 grade.

[suffolksupplies]

Honing a blade as with anything is very personal thing. Some will sharpen on 4000 & use a pasted strop. I find pastes very messy & require you to have two strops; you could use your cheap strop for paste. If your cheap blades are way off sharp the 1,000 side of the 1,000/6,000 will be good for the cutting & 6,000 for finish. That said the norton 4000/8000 is highly recommended & you can only get a better stone for many ££££.

If you you think your blades are close to razor sharp (take hair off your forearm with ease) then Norton is great, if they need more (as you probably know from sharpening chisels etc) they would take a long time on a 4,000 to get an edge.

This is a nice guide:
http://www.shavemyface.com/downloads/The-Straight-Razor-Shave.pdf

If they have never been honed then sending them to a professional maybe a good idea. When they come back you will know what you need to achieve.
I don't use a straight much so aren't qualified to offer such a service but there are guys in the UK mentioned on this forum:

http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/


Regards,

Paul

[Viktor]

...the norton 4000/8000 is highly recommended...

+1

Regards,
Viktor

[suffolksupplies]

Welcome to the Shave Den Viktor.


Regards,

Paul

[Viktor]

...the norton 4000/8000 is highly recommended...

You can find it here (http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdSrch.cgi/@cStones%20-%20Waterstones@b::0::user::1,0,0,1::).

Cheers, :)
Viktor

[Viktor]

Welcome to the Shave Den Viktor.


Regards,

Paul

Thank you Paul.

Regards,
Viktor

[Black Dog]

The straights weren't advertised as shave-ready, and have no honing marks on the spines, so perhaps they just need honing. But as I said before, they are as sharp as anything I have ever seen and can shave the inside of my forearm easily.

Perhaps I will go with a cheaper honing stone and do some work on them, and then upgrade to a Norton 4000/8000 if I'm still doing it in 6 months' time.

Thanks for the advice.

[tjgriffin]

I will also keep trying with the Ever Ready, but that's more a nostalgia thing as it's what my Dad used to use. Maybe a good DE might be a solution, with the SE put out to grass as a display object rather than a daily shave.

I'll keep going, and thanks for the input everyone.

You can get new production GEM SE blades. I wouldn't trust vintage blades, even unopened, as moisture over the years probably ruined the edge. And do not use lab slicing blades or box cutter blades from the hardware store. Check the blade section at Barbieria Italiana. They also has a great selection of DE blades.

http://www.razorandbrush.com/barberiablade.html

[Bill]

3rd place?


.......................:sad029

[qhsdoitall]

3rd place?


.......................:sad029

Only because my skill is not worthy of such a wonderful blade. I don't do it justice. In terms of quality it far surpasses anything else I have. Give me a while to improve my meager shaving talent. It will move up in rank.

[Reformation Student]

I might be getting in late on this but to offer another option:

a 4-sided paddle strop from Tony @ www.thewellshavedgentleman.com is sort of an all-in-one idea. You can get 3 sides pasted with different pastes used to sharpen and refresh an edge and one side with plain leather for daily stropping. If, later, you decide to continue with the cut throat, you can purchase a hanging strop and the Norton. If you talked with Tony, he'd be able to set you up with the right choices for pastes.

Just a question, but the package you purchased off Ebay didn't have the name Zeepk anywhere on it did it?

[fritz]

...
Just a question, but the package you purchased off Ebay didn't have the name Zeepk anywhere on it did it?
I suspect you're right, unless it's Kriegar...:D:D

[Black Dog]

Just a question, but the package you purchased off Ebay didn't have the name Zeepk anywhere on it did it?

No, I don't think so. In fact, I don't think I have seen any maker's name anywhere on the blade or scales (which isn't a good sign, but hey, for under 20 quid for two ...). I think I would have remembered a name like Zeepk :eek:

I'll have a look when I get home.

[Black Dog]

OK, home now. No maker's name anywhere on the razor. On the blade, a "gold" inlay with a strange device and the words "Best Brand".

Ring any bells?

[Padron]

3rd place?


.......................:sad029

Wow, I saw that too...... Rich you need to perfect your skills on that bad boy :D

[qhsdoitall]

Wow, I saw that too...... Rich you need to perfect your skills on that bad boy :D

I'm working on it! Strictly me. The tool is the best but the operator is a novice. :D

[Black Dog]

Some positives to report.

Today I bought a sharpening stone from the local DIY place. It's a Norton India stone, with two grades of grit. The finer of the two is pretty fine - I would say about 1200 from the feel, although nothing is stated on the box. I know that's nothing like the 8000 grit some people recommend, but it's a start (and a whole lot better than the oilstone in my workshop).

I've given the straight razor blade about 50 to-and-fro trips on the stone, then stropped it with the short strop and a bit of black paste.

Result - a good shave. Not a great shave, but a good-enough shave. A million times better than with the unhoned blade, and a heap better than the SE Ever Ready. Now I know why I was having the problems - a simple matter of sharpness. The blade seemed extremely sharp to the touch, but obviously there is a whole new dimension of sharpness that I was unaware of.

Wishlist now includes a Norton 4000/8000 stone and a decent razor, but I'm going to keep working on this cheapie until I get to 98% acceptable. I'd say it's around 90% acceptable now. The fun is in the trying. One thing is for sure: I'm happy enough with the results to use the straight on an everyday basis. I'll only revert to the cartridge razor if I'm in a real hurry.

One other thing. A drop of rainwater had splashed on to the blade from an open window and had made a rust spot. I got some metal polish to remove it. I also removed the "gold" inscription on the blade face in the process, and most of the "best brand" etching. Hey, I'm dealing with quality here.

[Bill]

I'm working on it! Strictly me. The tool is the best but the operator is a novice. :D

I'm only funnin' ya, Rich. You can like whatever you want.







:rolleyes:








:rofl

[Pauldog]

It sounds like you're sticking with the straight razor, but here are some notes for other razors.

The Gem Blue Star blade isn't stainless. If it's from an old pack, the blades may have deteriorated. The best SE blades to try first are regular Gem stainless.

Since you're in the UK, it should be fairly easy to find what are often called the "Swedish" Gillette DE blades, which are one of the very best all-around blades, very sharp, but very smooth and easy to use. (They are marked on the package with several European cities, including Stockholm, but we're not really sure where they're made.)

Injector razors are apparently very rare in the UK, and the better US-made Schick blades are no longer made, so I won't go further here. It's unfortunate, since in many ways, the injector may be the best of the safety razors, easier to use than the DE and with a much smaller head than the SE.

[Black Dog]

That's really helpful. Thanks.

[tjgriffin]

It sounds like you're sticking with the straight razor, but here are some notes for other razors.

The Gem Blue Star blade isn't stainless. If it's from an old pack, the blades may have deteriorated. The best SE blades to try first are regular Gem stainless.

Since you're in the UK, it should be fairly easy to find what are often called the "Swedish" Gillette DE blades, which are one of the very best all-around blades, very sharp, but very smooth and easy to use. (They are marked on the package with several European cities, including Stockholm, but we're not really sure where they're made.)

Injector razors are apparently very rare in the UK, and the better US-made Schick blades are no longer made, so I won't go further here. It's unfortunate, since in many ways, the injector may be the best of the safety razors, easier to use than the DE and with a much smaller head than the SE.

Feather injector blades (ProGuard, Professional, and Super) are a bit longer then the old Schicks. They can be made to fit in a Schick by cutting off a bit the end off them with a pair of sharp tin snips. Their magazine is not made for injecting into a Schick, so there is some blade handling involved getting to get them in. It might be a little easier to put the blades into an old Schick magazine, then inject it into the razor.

Hope that helps!

[Black Dog]

Well, I've trawled this site and decided I ought to give the DE experience a go, so today I ordered a Merkur 1904 from Connaught. I've also ordered a blade sample pack. That should keep me out of mischief for a while.

[mastermute]

Well, I've trawled this site and decided I ought to give the DE experience a go, so today I ordered a Merkur 1904 from Connaught. I've also ordered a blade sample pack. That should keep me out of mischief for a while.

:signs107

[fritz]

Feather injector blades (ProGuard, Professional, and Super) are a bit longer then the old Schicks. They can be made to fit in a Schick by cutting off a bit the end off them with a pair of sharp tin snips. Their magazine is not made for injecting into a Schick, so there is some blade handling involved getting to get them in. It might be a little easier to put the blades into an old Schick magazine, then inject it into the razor.
Hope that helps!
Yes, I have used the Pros a lot, the Super and the ProGuard are thicker than the regular Schick injector, but may work. I use a Dremel tool with a cut-off wheel to do 5 blades at a time, then usually pack 10 of them into an empty Schick magazine (the newer white plastic ones are easy to take apart).

I generally use the "featherjector" about 1/3 of my shaves for the last ATG and touch-up passes. Ten blades will last you (well, me) about a year at that rate.

[Martlet]

Well, I've trawled this site and decided I ought to give the DE experience a go, so today I ordered a Merkur 1904 from Connaught. I've also ordered a blade sample pack. That should keep me out of mischief for a while.

Hiram,

I'd send the straight out to a honemeister. This will give you a benchmark for what a shave ready razor feels like. Then when you hone, you'll KNOW what you're striving for.

[Black Dog]

That's a really good idea. I'm not sure I would do that with the straights I have got, though. They are really cheap! I'm sure that a proper honing from someone who knows what they are doing would cost me more than the razors did.

If I can get a nice vintage razor, I will certainly do that. For the time being, my 1904 has arrived (not opened yet, just got in from work), so I'm going to put some time into getting that right first. I want to persist with the straights, but I'm thinking that is going to be a longer-term prospect for me.

Thanks for the input, anyhow.

Hiram is my brother, by the way ;)