honing/stropping

[Reformation Student]

I use a Norton 4k/8k and refresh on the 8k side however the edge never seems as long as I think it should. I'm not the best stropping but I'm not sure the stropping is dulling the edge as a thumb pad test will usually indicate a greater degree of keenness after stropping. Still, it's possible and I'm open to everything here.

What do you guys use to refresh your edges?

I'm at the point where I want to re-examine my technique and tools to make sure that I'm getting better and not worse.

[PalmettoB]

I know using a pasted paddle strop made a BIG difference for me after coming off the 8K side. Some people can go straight from the 8K side to a plain linen/leather strop, but I really like the difference I see by going from the 8K side of a Norton to chromium oxide on a paddle. Tony Miller has paddles (http://shop.thewellshavedgentleman.com/categoryNavigationDocument.hg?categoryId=4) that he will add paste to for you, or Bill Ellis has one (http://www.billysblades.com/Other%20Goodies/Paddle%20Strop%2004.htm) on his site.

[Reformation Student]

I know using a pasted paddle strop made a BIG difference for me after coming off the 8K side. Some people can go straight from the 8K side to a plain linen/leather strop, but I really like the difference I see by going from the 8K side of a Norton to chromium oxide on a paddle. Tony Miller has paddles (http://shop.thewellshavedgentleman.com/categoryNavigationDocument.hg?categoryId=4) that he will add paste to for you, or Bill Ellis has one (http://www.billysblades.com/Other%20Goodies/Paddle%20Strop%2004.htm) on his site.

I have a paddle strop pasted with Chromium Oxide that came from Hand American (the paste, not the paddle). Every time I use it, I seem to dull the edge. For some reason, I've never gotten to like the chrome ox. I get great shaves off of the 8k, just not long lasting edges. Seems as if I'm refreshing once a week.

[coolsimon]

heres how I see it...now bearing in mind Im no expert, this is my experience. I havent honed in a while but i do use a pasted strop occasionally to refresh the edge, this is what works for me.

Could this be a technique thing?, I had a bad stropping technique and this seemed to do more ill than good as I was lifting the blade every time I took a lap, this happened as I changed direction, so therefore i was almost ruining a good edge being that it is a fine edge.

I am in no way suggesting there is anything wrong with what your doing, Im only suggesting an area to consider from my own experiences.

regards,simon:signs021

[Reformation Student]

heres how I see it...now bearing in mind Im no expert, this is my experience. I havent honed in a while but i do use a pasted strop occasionally to refresh the edge, this is what works for me.

Could this be a technique thing?, I had a bad stropping technique and this seemed to do more ill than good as I was lifting the blade every time I took a lap, this happened as I changed direction, so therefore i was almost ruining a good edge being that it is a fine edge.

I am in no way suggesting there is anything wrong with what your doing, Im only suggesting an area to consider from my own experiences.

regards,simon:signs021

Simon,

I'm not understanding something here. I'm reading that you lifted the blade every time you would change direction on the strop. How do you flip it over if you don't lift it? Or do you mean that you took the blade completely off the strop instead of flipping it on it's spine?

[coolsimon]

Sorry I wasnt too clear, what I meant was that towards the end of the stroke the blade wasnt completely flat on the strop, I had lifted the spine up a bit. I went through the motions well enough when turning the blade over as you are meant to, so when I lifted the spine slightly the edge was put on the strop more than it should have been.

regards,simon

[Bill]

I cheat with the green paste once in a while. However, once you have a good stropping technique down, you won't have to go to the stone very much at all. It's all a matter of practice.

Keep in mind also, some razors just don't respond the same. I don't want to get into brand names that I don't like as it would step on some toes out there... don't want to do that.

For an idea of some of the better razors, go to my site and look through the razors (especially the ones that have sold) that are rated with at least an 8. I'm not trying to sell anything here, just look so you get an idea regarding some of my choices.

[Reformation Student]

Last night, I did about 70-80 passes on the 8k. The shave this morning was disgusting. It's like I didn't sharpen it at all. I got close but only at the expense of massive razor burn.

Something is up with either my stone or my technique.

Bill, on my other post you mentioned getting a 30X loupe. I can do that but I don't know what I'm looking for. Can you describe what I should be aiming for so I can tell when I'm there?

[Scorpio]

RS,

Not knowing the brand or how old or where the blade was acquired I am going to take a shot. Stroping technique might be a possibility. Don't go for speed but for quality. Slow and easy. Another issue could be oxidation, I think that is the term, on the edge. You may need to go back to a 1k and run a few laps to get to the good clean metal on the edge so to establish a new bevel and a new edge. I do this with every blade I get from ebay and antique malls with excellent results. Some brands have a bit harder metal so you may need to use a little more pressure when honing to get the desired result. I used to go from the 8k to the strop and then shave. I now go from the 8k to 12k and a .5 diamond pasted strop and then a strop for a smooth edge. I found, YMMV, that going from the 8k was not smooth enough for my face. Others do the 8k and then shave with no problems but I can not do it.

Hope this helps.

Raf

[msandoval858]

RS,

What kind of blade are you using? If the 8K isn't doing anything to it, I'm thinking that perhaps you need drop to a lower grit and re-establish a good cutting edge. Stropping could have something do with it, but I am thinking there might be more to it.

[Reformation Student]

I have a NOS razor called a Wapienica. It is an excellent blade and honed very easily (many have this result and also indicate that it shaves every bit as well or better than the higher end blades). I use it every day.

I had this thing shaving nicely but over the last couple of times of refreshing has gotten progressively duller for some reason. I have used both the 4k and 8k side of the Norton stone I have and still not where I think it should be.

I'm usually a guy who can shave right off the 8k.

EDIT: I only have a 4k/8k stone and a leather bench hone pasted with chromium oxide

[Scorpio]

I have a NOS razor called a Wapienica. It is an excellent blade and honed very easily (many have this result and also indicate that it shaves every bit as well or better than the higher end blades). I use it every day.

I had this thing shaving nicely but over the last couple of times of refreshing has gotten progressively duller for some reason. I have used both the 4k and 8k side of the Norton stone I have and still not where I think it should be.

I'm usually a guy who can shave right off the 8k.

EDIT: I only have a 4k/8k stone and a leather bench hone pasted with chromium oxide

ok, could you describe your honing. I mean how many laps on the 4k and how many laps on the 8k? Have you ever used the pyramid technique? or do you go by feel?

Sometimes if you back hone once on each side and then hone as normal it helps get the edge nice and ready.

Raf

[Reformation Student]

ok, could you describe your honing. I mean how many laps on the 4k and how many laps on the 8k? Have you ever used the pyramid technique? or do you go by feel?

Sometimes if you back hone once on each side and then hone as normal it helps get the edge nice and ready.

Raf

Happy to.

I hone in an X pattern. Typically, I would refresh by just doing a series of 10 light strokes on the 8k side, strop and test shave. I'd continue this until I got the desired result. If it needs a little more bite, I would add 1 or 2 4k strokes and hone on the 8k as described. (this is just to keep a sharp razor sharp, I don't do restore work on Ebay stuff or anything like that).

Recently, I just finished a series of about 70-80 strokes on the 8k with no noticeable improvement in sharpness. I lap my 8k with 1k grit sandpaper which leaves if feeling like glass (I have contemplated if this is actually too smooth).

I have tried the pyramids but never had success with them.

Hope I've given some useful info.

[Bill]

70 to 80 passes? Ouch...

I think you have a little overkill going on there. Once a razor is sharp, it has been my experience that no more than 10 passes on an 8K are needed to refresh. Matter of fact, about 4-5 will do it most of the time.

Below is a doofy little sketch I made so you know what I was referring to regarding the edge bevel.

339

[Reformation Student]

Bill,

Thanks much for the drawing. Yeah, 80 passes is a lot much and I've thought 5-10 passes on the 8k would do it so I'm glad you mentioned that. I'm still in that learning curve on honing so it doesn't surprise me that I do dumb things before I do smart things.

When looking at the edge from one side or the other, what should the bevel look like (dark, wide, narrow, etc)?

Let's say tonight I look at my razor and it looks like the second (incorrect view looking down the edge from toe to heel) picture, what then? work on the the 4K until it does? or stay with the 8k or go even lower?

So, if I understand: I should look at the razor edge on to see if both sides meet in a sharp point and if I looked at the edge lengthwise, it should be smooth with no little nicks or chips. Do I follow rightly??


By the way, in case I haven't mentioned it yet: I'm greatly appreciative of the help everyone is giving.

[xChris]

Have you lapped your Norton stone recently? I've found that if I have any unevenness on the surface that my honing qulaity will suffer/deteriorate quickly.

[Reformation Student]

Have you lapped your Norton stone recently? I've found that if I have any unevenness on the surface that my honing qulaity will suffer/deteriorate quickly.

Yes, with 1k sandpaper. Is that too high? It felt smooth as glass afterward.

[Reformation Student]

another question:

Where does one purchase a loupe with which to look at the edge?

[Bill]

Do not concern yourself over the width of the bevel as that will change with the thickness of the blade. It's a non-issue.

You will not see anything by looking directly down the cutting edge, other than a warped or mis-aligned blade. I only did the drawing that way so you could see that the angle of the bevel meets at a perfect apex.

You will be able to see all that by looking through the loupe and rotating/tilting it at different angles under a strong light to see imperfections.

Get one here (http://cgi.ebay.com/Jeweler-Loupe-30x-21mm-Silver-Eye-Magnifying-Glass-FDJU_W0QQitemZ220132521858QQihZ012QQcategoryZ34084 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem).

Also... I use enough pressure on my hones to slightly flex the blade for the first set of passes. I'll make, like, 4 strong passes and then 2 or 3 very light ones. This almost creates a compound bevel, I know. But that's ok, trust me. The only danger to this method is that there's a possibility you can create a burr due to a lack of experience. Practice practice practice, on a junker, and everything will iron out.

[Reformation Student]

Great! I just purchased that loupe. Thanks for the link.

When you do your honing, Bill, are you doing an X pattern or going straight up and down the hone?

[Jimbo]

RS and Bill,

Just a bit of personal experience with the wapienicias that might help with the discussion...

I've noticed that they needed very few, and pretty light, strokes on the 8K once the bevel was established. They seem very "soft" to me, but I'm no expert - I'm comparing them to, say, Sheffield steel like a Rodgers :shrug

Not sure if that's helpful or not.

James.

[Reformation Student]

RS and Bill,

Just a bit of personal experience with the wapienicias that might help with the discussion...

I've noticed that they needed very few, and pretty light, strokes on the 8K once the bevel was established. They seem very "soft" to me, but I'm no expert - I'm comparing them to, say, Sheffield steel like a Rodgers :shrug

Not sure if that's helpful or not.

James.

I'll say that it was very easy to hone initially.

It is beginning to look like the chief culprit is that I've lost a good bevel somehow.

[Jimbo]

I don't know RS. Again, it's probably better to see what the experts say, but if there's been, say, a wire edge that's broken off, that might have some implications for the bevel.

Sorry, I can't remember whether you said this before (I read this thread at 4:30am while I was waiting for someone to snipe me on an ebay bid :mad:) but have you tried taking it back to the 4K?

James.

[Reformation Student]

I don't know RS. Again, it's probably better to see what the experts say, but if there's been, say, a wire edge that's broken off, that might have some implications for the bevel.

Sorry, I can't remember whether you said this before (I read this thread at 4:30am while I was waiting for someone to snipe me on an ebay bid :mad:) but have you tried taking it back to the 4K?

James.

Yeah, I have but only for a couple of strokes. My understanding is that the 4k will take off mass amounts of metal very quickly and not being a honemeister, I get cautious about using it.

[Jimbo]

Yeah, I have but only for a couple of strokes. My understanding is that the 4k will take off mass amounts of metal very quickly and not being a honemeister, I get cautious about using it.

Fair enough. It does take metal off, but if you check frequently you're in complete control. And you can always put a bit of magic marker along the edge to reassure yourself about what and how much is being taken off. The trick is knowing when to stop :D (and I've never let not being a honemeister stop me from butchering my edges... LOL!)

James.

[Reformation Student]

(and I've never let not being a honemeister stop me from butchering my edges... LOL!)



:rofl Now, I'd be the same way if I had more than 2 razors. At least one has to be shave ready :D

[Reformation Student]

So all I have until my loupe arrives is the Radio Shack microscope. Tonight, I worked on the razor and kept checking the edge with the scope. I got to a point where the edge showed no nicks or chips so I stopped.

I took the razor in my right hand and shaved up my left arm which has very fine, soft hairs. Hair was just falling off at the slightest touch of the razor.

Switch hands, switch arms, repeat shave. Some hair fell off but mainly the razor just glided over them. I reversed the razor and shaved down the arm and the hairs just fell over onto the blade at the slightest touch.

Am I looking at an uneven bevel here? I applied what I thought was equal pressure on both sides of the blade while honing. Yes, I know this test isn't the ultimate but I thought it might be a good indicator of progress. The RS microscope is really useless to me. I think Bill's idea of using a loupe will be better for me but I only have this and one other razor, both of which need work, so I'm doing what I can at the moment.

[Reformation Student]

Hmm. I shaved this morning with this razor. Smoooooth.

I did a 2 pass shave and it's close enough for government work :rofl

Actually, it was close enough where I could easily go to the office or even out for an evening and look real good. (leave the jokes alone :p ) I'm happy with the result of the shave but I think it could be just a little sharper and a little smoother.

I don't know whether that's best accomplished using some more 8k passes or just doing some strokes on the linen strop first before the leather.

On a honing note:

I noticed last night that after doing some passes on the stone, I could see a bright shining bevel if I turned the razor into the light source. It was consistent from heel to toe on both sides (meaning there was no spot along the razor where I didn't see it). I've read where that's an indicator of good progress. What say y'all? Irrelevant coincidence or perhaps some truth to it?

[IsaacRN]

So i got my Loupe today...but for the life of me i cant decipher what it is im suppose to be looking at. Any help would be appreciated

[Scorpio]

I noticed last night that after doing some passes on the stone, I could see a bright shining bevel if I turned the razor into the light source. It was consistent from heel to toe on both sides (meaning there was no spot along the razor where I didn't see it). I've read where that's an indicator of good progress. What say y'all? Irrelevant coincidence or perhaps some truth to it?

You are on the right path. If you look throught the loupe you want to see a good solid edge with out microchips or rust. It will look the edge has little teeth, this is ok. You will be able to tell a microchip when you see it. This is what you are looking for and it is another indicator you are going in the right direction. Remember the ultimate test is the shave itself.

Raf

[xChris]

You also want to see a consistent finish at the edge -- some see it as a shiny line, and others see it as shadowed or black -- it should be the same color and size all along it.

[PalmettoB]

What you see through the loupe/microscope won't seem all that "impressive," I suppose, but it does really help you see any tiny nicks or other imperfections you might not see as you hone, but you'll definitely feel when you shave!

[Scorpio]

You also want to see a consistent finish at the edge -- some see it as a shiny line, and others see it as shadowed or black -- it should be the same color and size all along it.

Exactly!!!:D



Raf